28 May 2016 - MORE double hop - Radio Rossiy

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daveB
Posts: 991
Joined: 07 Oct 2014 16:49

28 May 2016 - MORE double hop - Radio Rossiy

Post by daveB » 03 Jun 2016 22:56

I've gone through the files that straddle 1600 UTC and there are at least 15 Radio Rossii frequencies and a another which is different but may also be Radio Rossii. Any help in identifying transmitter locations or even regions would be appreciated - especially the one on 70700kHz. I've been very careful to properly label each file with the frequency.

The first nine files are attached. Each of the nine files are 3 minutes long - and near the beginning of some is a Radio Rossii id jingle, there is a yl identifying R Rossii just before the pips - and I'd very much like to know what she says afterwards - it sounds like she starts off saying "in chin", [something] "and" [something]. You can skip to near the end if you want to quickly compare.

1. 66950 - single pips https://app.box.com/s/tbalh20ttbsg59d12j72z4ljpy3tlova
2. 67760 - single pips https://app.box.com/s/zury9xe143bjdwboovq37ub8kpnmug3a
3. 69440 - single pips https://app.box.com/s/al0luriw0wgvglggh8b9xhayvpidc8ef
4. 69600 - poor https://app.box.com/s/uhxd4gzncd40em51hl19kkjlday4tw8m
5. 69980 - double pips https://app.box.com/s/i0d3ymnzj4009o6ss92dg8zw7y47s9ox
6. 70010 - double pips - preceded by whats sounds like the 'jingle' https://app.box.com/s/y2dt9ustcmp00m34dwf0jfounckwjofv
7. 70070 - double pips https://app.box.com/s/fypcgpmo57y0m6w8j39ddy8cbspgt2y7
8. 70160 - single pips https://app.box.com/s/b4p9jjx0k952x546dguglgtww3eq8wpu
9. 70940 - single pips https://app.box.com/s/03pnx06bmtea4wtkm6cc6f89oncjau51

I'm particularly interested in the ones that have a double pip time signal -669800 and 70100 look identical - but I can see the two different signals on the SDR fading in and out. And especially which station preceeds the time pips with the haunting melody. The last time I heard that was in my short-wave listening days 45 years ago - it was used when a sw station wasn't broadcasting to keep the frequency and I'm pretty sure it was Russia's signature - any thoughts??
Radio Rossi.png
sorry - quality nowhere near a good as original but it is supposed to show the signals at 69.98, 70.01, 70.04, and 70.07 - with the wide signal at 70.04 being radio Marija

There was a very poor signal on 702800 that was not worth recording. Some frequencies, especially 70010 and 70700 needs very narrow bandwidth to reduce adj. ch. interference and are a bit distorted. And if anyone can identify the on channel interfering signals that would help.

10. 69680 This one is to give an idea of the way the propagation was fluctuating.- a full six minutes where three stations are dominating the channel in turn and R.Rossii pops up a couple of times as BLR Pershy Kanal (?) drops out https://app.box.com/s/beb155y399a5gwh5t7wyfcqdi04x6dgf

Based on the bearing and distance of the single hop reception I expect the double hop to be on the same general bearing at this point in time ie 74-93 deg and around 3500 - 4100 km. In a couple of cases there is only one listed station and at double hop distance. In some cases there is more than one station but all are at double hop distance. In other cases the stations in the presumed direction are at double hop distance.

It should be noted than an hour later propagation has shifted round to the east with R Rossi identifying itself as coming from St Petersberg on 66.30 and I got a Lithuanian station on Band 2 (see log) - all that OIRT file is yet to be processed.

The logbook so far:
  • Propa Date UTC QRG ITU Program name Location Reg kW km Azi
    Es 28.05.16 1554-1601 65.75 UKR Pershiy Natsional'niy/Telek. ERA Kyiv/KFKRRT, vul. Dorogozhyts'ka, 10 KC 33.8 2070 81
    Es 28.05.16 1600 66.32 BLR BR Pershy Kanal/OIRT Pinsk/RTPS Posenichi BR 4 1735 77
    Es 28.05.16 1600 66.44 BLR BR Gomel FM/OIRT Smetanichi/RTPS GO 17 1900 76
    Es 28.05.16 1600 66.95 RUS Radio Rossii Sadovoye/RTPS KX 17 3134 80
    Es 28.05.16 1600 67.1 BLR BR Kanal Kultura/OIRT Pinsk/RTPS Posenichi BR 4 1735 77
    Es 28.05.16 1600 67.19 UKR UR 2 Radio Promin' Chernivtsi/CHFKRRT, vul. Bilets'ka, 6 CV 17 1822 91
    Es 28.05.16 1600 67.34 BLR BR Kanal Kultura/OIRT Slonim/RTPS Novaja Strazha HR 17 1686 74
    Es 28.05.16 1600 67.37 BLR BR Pershy Kanal/OIRT Bragin/RTPS GO 17 2025 77
    Es 28.05.16 1600 67.46 UKR UR 2 Radio Promin' Antopil'/RFKRRT, vul. Kyivs'ka, 12 RI 17 1789 83
    Es 28.05.16 1600 67.76 RUS Radio Rossii Tuapse/RTPS KD 5 2939 91
    Es 28.05.16 1600 67.88 BLR BR Radio Stalitsa/OIRT Pinsk/RTPS Posenichi BR 4 1735 77
    MS 28.05.16 1558 67.97 RUS Radio Rossii Novorossiysk/RTPS Markotskij Hrebet KD 17 2803 90
    Es 28.05.16 1600 68.12 BLR BR Radio Grodno/OIRT Slonim/RTPS Novaja Strazha HR 17 1686 74
    Es 28.05.16 1631 68.45 BLR BR Gomel FM/OIRT Zhlobin/RTPS (ul. Marksa 1a) GO 2 1993 73
    Es 28.05.16 1600 68.48 MDA RFE/RL Str??eni/STRV ST 20 2059 92
    Es 28.05.16 1600 69.08 BLR BR Radio Brest/OIRT Pinsk/RTPS Posenichi BR 4 1735 77
    Es 28.05.16 1600 69.14 RUS Radio Rossii Kamyshin/RTPS VG 17 3096 75
    Es 28.05.16 1600 69.44 RUS Radio Rossii Chilekovo/RTPS VG 17 3060 80
    Es 28.05.16 1600 69.53 MDA BBC WS/RFE/RL Ungheni/SRTV Cetireni UN 20 2009 93
    Es 28.05.16 1600 69.92 BLR BR Gomel FM/OIRT Bragin/RTPS GO 17 2025 77
    Es 28.05.16 1600 70.01 RUS Radio Rossii Neftekumsk ST 17 3317 85
    Es 28.05.16 1600 70.4 UKR Hromads'ke Radio Kyiv/KFKRRT, vul. Dorogozhyts'ka, 10 KC 17 2070 81
    Es 28.05.16 1600 71.78 UKR UR 2 Radio Promin' Olevs'k/ZHFKRRT, vul. Svyatomykolayivs'ka, 146 ZH 17 1861 80
    Es 28.05.16 1600 72.86 UKR UR 3 Radio Kul'tura Kyiv/KFKRRT, vul. Dorogozhyts'ka, 10 KC 17 2070 81
    Es 28.05.16 1751 83.74 MDA TRM M1 Str??eni ST 91.2 2060 92
    Es 28.05.16 1755 87.7 SVK Fun Rádio Košice/Dubník KE 100 1495 92
    Es 28.05.16 1517 88.8 SRB TDI Radio Niš/Bulevar Nemanji?a Srb 0.3 1817 111
    Es 28.05.16 1549 89.3 POL RMF FM Lublin/Piaski LB 30 1534 82
    Es 28.05.16 1418 89.5 SRB Radio Vladimirci Vladimirci/Skupljen Srb 0.3 1595 110
    Es 28.05.16 1418 89.7 SRB Radio Beograd 1 Jagodina/Crni vrh Srb 25 1720 110
    Es 28.05.16 1418 90.2 SRB Radio Cer Lipolist Srb 0.1 1576 111
    Es 28.05.16 1756 90.7 LTU M-1 Raseiniai/LRTC Raseini? RRS, Vilniaus g. 1 Ras 0.501 1543 64
    Es 28.05.16 1549 90.8 POL PR 1 Lublin/Piaski LB 30 1534 82
    Es 28.05.16 1627 90.8 ROU SRR Radio Ia?i Câmpulung Moldovenesc/Rar?u SV 30 1837 94
    Es 28.05.16 1748 91.7 BUL BNR Hristo Botev Plovdiv/RRTS Zdravets pld 1 2089 110
    Es 28.05.16 1417 92 SRB Radio Gem Lazarevac/Stubi?ki vis Srb 0.1 1645 111
    Es 28.05.16 1756 92.8 POL PR 1 Zakopane/G.Guba?ówka MP 10 1376 92
    Es 28.05.16 1418 92.9 BUL BNR Hristo Botev Sofia/Kopitoto-KRTTS Vitoša sfg 1 1949 111
    Es 28.05.16 1627 96 ROU SRR Radio România Actualit??i Câmpulung Moldovenesc/Rar?u SV 30 1837 94
    Es 28.05.16 1801 97.6 ROU SRR Radio România Muzical Mun?ii Bucegi/Vârful Co?tila PH 100 1930 100
    Es 28.05.16 1753 98.1 SRB Best R Tupižnica (Srb) 2 1809 110
By the way - can anything be done so that we can attach csv files - I hate the lousy formatting you end up with?

DAvid
SDRPlay, AirSpyMini, RTL dongles, SB920s, Yamaha TX930. 5 ele compact yagi on rotator at 18ft agl. FM5 facing east, FM5 facing south, FM3 facing NE, OIRT dipole, 3-ele Moxon vertical facing east.

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senderjaeger
Posts: 174
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Re: 28 May 2016 - MORE double hop - Radio Rossiy

Post by senderjaeger » 04 Jun 2016 00:51

Hi Dave,

the one on 70.07 is not Radio Rossii but Radio Mayak, known by its famous interval signal heard at 2:25. That interval signal was already used in the Soviet era and I think it's the one you're remembering from your shortwave listening days. FMLIST is listing two transmitters for Mayak on that frequency, Tula and Sochi.

On 69.98 and 70.01, just the ordinary Radio Rossii jingle is heard prior to the time pips. On both frequencies though, there is an echo indicating that you received two unsnchroniszed transmitters on each frequency. I've often heard that effect on MW and SW, but it's the first time I'm hearing it on VHF/FM. Very interesting.

How long did you record? As far as I know, regional news on Radio Rossii are aired about 10 minutes past the hour, being a good opportunity to get a local ID if you happen to receive them during scheduled regional broadcasting times.

73, Matthias
QTH: near Hannover, Germany

daveB
Posts: 991
Joined: 07 Oct 2014 16:49

Re: 28 May 2016 - MORE double hop - Radio Rossiy

Post by daveB » 04 Jun 2016 09:50

Hi Matthias,

Thanks for identifying Radio Mayak. I have plenty more files from the 28th including one for 1610-15 so when I have the chance I'll listen. I can hear an echo on the woman's voice immediately after the time pips - but do you mean the double pips are the echo? I have double pips on Rossii on 69.98 and 70.01 and on Mayak on 70.07. The interval between the first (stronger) pip on 69.98 is 400ms as close as I can measure it on my audio editing software. The interval between the pips on R Mayak is 342 ms.


Closer to home I had an echo on BBC Radio 2 between two transmitters on adjacent frequencies on a wideband analogue tuner when the more distant station faded up. So no synchronisation between those two transmitters!

David
SDRPlay, AirSpyMini, RTL dongles, SB920s, Yamaha TX930. 5 ele compact yagi on rotator at 18ft agl. FM5 facing east, FM5 facing south, FM3 facing NE, OIRT dipole, 3-ele Moxon vertical facing east.

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pe1etr
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Re: 28 May 2016 - MORE double hop - Radio Rossiy

Post by pe1etr » 04 Jun 2016 10:36

Dave/Matthias

With an SDR I get an echo from two network txers 100kHz apart. eg BBC R2Winter Hill on 88.6 & Pontop Pike on 88.5
Peter

daveB
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Joined: 07 Oct 2014 16:49

Re: 28 May 2016 - MORE double hop - Radio Rossiy

Post by daveB » 04 Jun 2016 12:21

This is getting fascinating! Can anyone think why some radio stations on a network would put out a double pip time signal? It doesn't seem logical. So I started thinking (dangerous I know!) and the though popped into my head - the phenomen of FM capture. With two FM signals on a channel the audio of the stronger channel is captured - unlike AM where they can both be heard. We all know that - but what happens if the stronger station has a silent gap and the weaker station doesn't - will the audio of the weaker station then appear? If that is the case - the double pips are completely explained.

On that basis in simple terms it indicates two different propagation paths - the first towards Ukraine/Moldova with double hop signals from Russia appearing at 2900 - 3300 km (bearing 75-90). The second - single hop around 1800 - 2000 km (bearing around 60-65 deg)
SDRPlay, AirSpyMini, RTL dongles, SB920s, Yamaha TX930. 5 ele compact yagi on rotator at 18ft agl. FM5 facing east, FM5 facing south, FM3 facing NE, OIRT dipole, 3-ele Moxon vertical facing east.

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senderjaeger
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Re: 28 May 2016 - MORE double hop - Radio Rossiy

Post by senderjaeger » 04 Jun 2016 17:12

daveB wrote:I can hear an echo on the woman's voice immediately after the time pips - but do you mean the double pips are the echo?
Yes, that's what I mean, the double pips are in fact single pips and the echo is caused by receiving two different unsynchronized transmitters on the same frequency. While the pips on the main signal sound rather clear, the "echo" ones underneath are quite distorted. I can also hear the echo during the voice announcements (apparetly a programme preview) before the time pips as well as after the time pips (start of the newscast).
With two FM signals on a channel the audio of the stronger channel is captured - unlike AM where they can both be heard. We all know that - but what happens if the stronger station has a silent gap and the weaker station doesn't - will the audio of the weaker station then appear? If that is the case - the double pips are completely explained.
That's exactly the theory I have in mind and I think the fact that the stronger signal is fading also helps the weaker one to get audible.
On that basis in simple terms it indicates two different propagation paths - the first towards Ukraine/Moldova with double hop signals from Russia appearing at 2900 - 3300 km (bearing 75-90). The second - single hop around 1800 - 2000 km (bearing around 60-65 deg)
That conclusion sounds plausible.

73, Matthias
QTH: near Hannover, Germany

daveB
Posts: 991
Joined: 07 Oct 2014 16:49

Re: 28 May 2016 - MORE double hop - Radio Rossiy

Post by daveB » 04 Jun 2016 17:58

Hi Matthias,

Assuming that FMList is fairly complete for the OIRT band then the two instances of R Mayak are for me single hop and double hop. Two hours later the band was still wide open. R Rossii on 70.01 was clear with no echo on the pips and Mayak, which was very weak, still had the echo.

This is how interpret my reception - in some cases where there is a choice both are well beyond single hop distances.
  • QRG ITU Program name Location Reg kW km Azi Details
    66.95 RUS Radio Rossii Sadovoye/RTPS KX 17 3134 80
    66.95 RUS Radio Rossii Kashin TV 4 2444 60 most likely tx for propagation at time

    67.76 RUS Radio Rossii Tuapse/RTPS KD 5 2939 91 most likely tx for propagation at time
    67.76 RUS Radio Rossii Shilega AR 17 2856 44

    67.94 RUS Radio Rossii Novosokolniki / RTPS PS 17 1981 62 most likely tx for propagation at time
    67.94 RUS Radio Rossii Nizhniy Novgorod NN 17 2842 62

    67.97 RUS Radio Rossii Novorossiysk/RTPS Markotskij Hrebet KD 17 2803 90 almost certainly this tx
    67.97 RUS Radio Rossii Khadyzhensk KD 0.4 2955 90

    69.08 RUS Radio Rossii Primorsko-Akhtarsk KD 1 2776 87 fits what I think is the propagation path better
    69.08 RUS Radio Rossii Kuznetsk / RTPS Blagodatka PZ 17 3064 68

    69.14 RUS Radio Rossii Kamyshin/RTPS VG 17 3096 75 almost certainly this tx
    69.14 RUS Radio Rossii Kovylkino MD 0.4 2878 67

    69.44 RUS Radio Rossii Chilekovo/RTPS VG 17 3060 80 most likely tx for propagation at the time
    69.44 RUS Radio Rossii Kotlas / RTPS AR 17 2962 50

    69.59 RUS Radio Rossii Pavlovskaya KD 1 2885 86
    69.59 RUS Radio Rossii Ulan-Kohl KX 17 2408 83 most likely tx for propagation at the time

    69.68 RUS Radio Rossii Aleksandrov Gay / RTPS SR 17 3306 73
    69.68 RUS Radio Rossii Kozlovtsy / RTPS TV 17 2201 61 most likely tx for propagation at the time

    69.98 RUS Radio Rossii Chernyi Yar / RTPS AS 17 3229 78 one of two transmitters
    69.98 RUS Radio Rossii Rzhev TV 1 2247 63 the other of two transmitters

    70.01 RUS Radio Rossii Neftekumsk ST 17 3317 85 one of two transmitters
    70.01 RUS Radio Rossii Gluboyke PS 17 1924 61 the other of two transmitters

    70.07 RUS Radio Mayak Sochi / RTPC KD 17 3014 91 one of two transmitters
    70.07 RUS Radio Mayak Tula / Novo-Basovo TL 17 2470 68 the other of two transmitters

    70.16 RUS Radio Rossii Belgorod BE 17 2485 78 ?
    70.16 RUS Radio Rossii Balashav SR 17 2887 73 ? could be any one of these three
    70.16 RUS Radio Rossii Lotos AS AS 17 3351 79 ?

    70.28 RUS Radio Rossii Kamensk-Shakhtinskiy / RTPS RO 17 2821 81 most likely tx for propagation at the time
    70.28 RUS Radio Rossii Kostomuksha / RTPS KR 1 2258 38
Everyone is welcome to peruse the entries in FMList and see what they think

David
SDRPlay, AirSpyMini, RTL dongles, SB920s, Yamaha TX930. 5 ele compact yagi on rotator at 18ft agl. FM5 facing east, FM5 facing south, FM3 facing NE, OIRT dipole, 3-ele Moxon vertical facing east.

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