FM radio library: Looking for support!

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Günter Lorenz
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Posts: 67
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FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Günter Lorenz » 16 Nov 2019 19:09

Hi everyone,

I've just started a new project (and I think this is the best place to talk about it). It's about the "sound" of FM radio stations, about deviation and loudness.
We plan to collect and evaluate SDR registrations, 15 minutes, of local FM signals. We all know that all radio stations respect deviation limits and loudness recommendations, but nevertheless all recordings are of interest, and this is why I'm asking for your contribution, world-wide.
Unfortunately we cannot use DX recordings for such evaluations - signals must be intereference-free, and we need stable and constantely strong signals over 15 minutes.
Here is a detailed guide: https://www.fmlist.org/FMradiolibrary.pdf
We will publish results here: http://www.fmlist.eu/ - still very basic, more to come!
We are also going to evaluate DAB, and compare FM and DAB signals, details can be found in the above mentioned document.

Questions? Suggestions? Let me know.
Thanks in advance for your support!

73,
Günter

Nick Gilly
Posts: 1497
Joined: 18 Sep 2014 14:17
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire, UK

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Nick Gilly » 17 Nov 2019 16:38

Hi Günter. I won't be able to participate in this as I don't have the SDR receiver that you are specifying, but I do remember that Capital from Chillerton Down on 103.2 was overmodulating according to my BW Broadcast RBRX Encore receiver, with peaks of >110% according to the modulation display. Perhaps Jim in Bournemouth would be able to provide a file of this.

This was quite a few months ago and I haven't checked recently, so it's possible it may have improved since then.
Good DX.

Nick, Whitchurch, Hampshire.

BW Broadcast RBRX Encore, Kenwood L-1000T, Yamaha T-2, Denon TU-800L, Kenwood KT-1100SD (modified), Yamaha T-85, Sony XDR-F1HD tuners, horizontal Körner 9.2 beam (Antennenland version), Yaesu G-450C rotator

Riku M
Posts: 5
Joined: 09 Jul 2019 14:45
Location: Haapavesi, Finland

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Riku M » 17 Nov 2019 18:58

Interesting project! :)

Here is some recordings from Oulu, Finland made with RTL-SDR. I will make more recordings of other stations, but my location has really bad multipath issues so I have to find a better place. I have also made many recordings next to the transmitter sites around Finland, but those are unfortunately short.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tB6Lv ... GxBuGVr3WN

HDSDR_20191117_120835Z_99100kHz_IF = NRJ 1kW
HDSDR_20191117_122450Z_93200kHz_IF = YleX 50kW
HDSDR_20191117_132704Z_94300kHz_IF = Radio Nostalgia 3kW

I'm not sure what the deviation limits are here in Finland. In the south many YLE stations are on max. 100% deviation, but here many main TXs have peaks up to 130%. Many YLE relays though on this area are on a lower deviation. Also 87.6 Radio Nostalgia in Lahti is about 130% and 105.3 Radio Nova relay in Raahe is really noisy and has peaks up to 150%. I have recordings of these but unfortunately only about 1-2min.

87.7 NRJ in Raahe used to relay 99.1 from Oulu and and was on about 80-90% deviation. Then in 2018 Radio Kajaus started in Raahe on 98.9 and they couldn't relay 99.1 anymore so they moved to some other method, maybe internet stream since there was delay compared to other TXs. Now they had deviation peaks up to 150-160% and sound from left channel was very weak, but it sounded awesome! :D Very dynamic, clear sound quality and not heavily compressed like other transmitters. But recently this summer they installed audio processors etc. to there and it is now the worst sounding station in Finland. :lol:


Riku Martinmäki

bigic
Posts: 2
Joined: 13 Nov 2019 00:19

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by bigic » 17 Nov 2019 22:56

"We all know that all radio stations respect deviation limits and loudness recommendations" lol
BTW There is a Google Drive folder of MPX WAW files (not IQ SDR!) and I'll link it here. These are not SDR files, but audio files of the MPX signal (L+R, pilot, L-R, RDS) where -3 dB is the reference for 75 kHz deviation. These can be opened by a program called MPX Tool.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0HNZ ... HQ4QXBnQVE - recordings from multiple countries. MPX Tool can be downoladed from a folder named "MPX_tool" (Don't worry, there are no cracks or anything else illegal, the version in the folder is the demo version)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzVv8 ... mJ3MjhNTjg - another folder with a few recordings, from Greece.

And you can also record from SpyServers - many of them have FM radio!

Günter Lorenz
Site Admin
Posts: 67
Joined: 02 Oct 2014 10:24

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Günter Lorenz » 20 Nov 2019 21:08

@Nick Gilly thanks for the info on this BBC tx. I guess this has been fixed but we'll see if we can catch them again. What kind of SDR would you have available?

@Riku M thank you for your interesting report! I've downloaded the files. Will let you all here know the results.

@bigic very interesting, thanks for your contribution! i'lltry to make best use of it. I assume the google drive folders will be online without restriction?

@ALL: We can now also use ELAD recordings, so if you have a S1, S2 or S3 (ha ha) you're invited to contribute!

73,
Günter

Nick Gilly
Posts: 1497
Joined: 18 Sep 2014 14:17
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire, UK

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Nick Gilly » 20 Nov 2019 23:06

Hi again Günter. I have the BW Broadcast RBRX Encore receiver as mentioned earlier. It doesn't appear on that list of supported products for HDSDR. It doesn't produce I/Q files as I presume you would need, as it is designed for rebroadcasting and monitoring a relay signal from a main tx.

I'll have a look over the next few days and see if Capital on 103.2 is still over-deviating.
Good DX.

Nick, Whitchurch, Hampshire.

BW Broadcast RBRX Encore, Kenwood L-1000T, Yamaha T-2, Denon TU-800L, Kenwood KT-1100SD (modified), Yamaha T-85, Sony XDR-F1HD tuners, horizontal Körner 9.2 beam (Antennenland version), Yaesu G-450C rotator

Nick Gilly
Posts: 1497
Joined: 18 Sep 2014 14:17
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire, UK

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Nick Gilly » 20 Nov 2019 23:09

Riku M wrote:
17 Nov 2019 18:58
Interesting project! :)

Here is some recordings from Oulu, Finland made with RTL-SDR. I will make more recordings of other stations, but my location has really bad multipath issues so I have to find a better place. I have also made many recordings next to the transmitter sites around Finland, but those are unfortunately short.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tB6Lv ... GxBuGVr3WN

HDSDR_20191117_120835Z_99100kHz_IF = NRJ 1kW
HDSDR_20191117_122450Z_93200kHz_IF = YleX 50kW
HDSDR_20191117_132704Z_94300kHz_IF = Radio Nostalgia 3kW

I'm not sure what the deviation limits are here in Finland. In the south many YLE stations are on max. 100% deviation, but here many main TXs have peaks up to 130%. Many YLE relays though on this area are on a lower deviation. Also 87.6 Radio Nostalgia in Lahti is about 130% and 105.3 Radio Nova relay in Raahe is really noisy and has peaks up to 150%. I have recordings of these but unfortunately only about 1-2min.

87.7 NRJ in Raahe used to relay 99.1 from Oulu and and was on about 80-90% deviation. Then in 2018 Radio Kajaus started in Raahe on 98.9 and they couldn't relay 99.1 anymore so they moved to some other method, maybe internet stream since there was delay compared to other TXs. Now they had deviation peaks up to 150-160% and sound from left channel was very weak, but it sounded awesome! :D Very dynamic, clear sound quality and not heavily compressed like other transmitters. But recently this summer they installed audio processors etc. to there and it is now the worst sounding station in Finland. :lol:


Riku Martinmäki
Interesting info Riku. I noticed during an excellent sporadic E opening to Sweden & Finland in the summer that there was a big difference between the txes in Sweden and Finland. The Swedish stations all had good, quiet modulation with a clean and smooth sound, whereas many of the Finnish stations sounded louder and much more processed. YLE Yksi was the exception to this.
Good DX.

Nick, Whitchurch, Hampshire.

BW Broadcast RBRX Encore, Kenwood L-1000T, Yamaha T-2, Denon TU-800L, Kenwood KT-1100SD (modified), Yamaha T-85, Sony XDR-F1HD tuners, horizontal Körner 9.2 beam (Antennenland version), Yaesu G-450C rotator

Riku M
Posts: 5
Joined: 09 Jul 2019 14:45
Location: Haapavesi, Finland

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Riku M » 21 Nov 2019 19:17

Nick Gilly wrote:
20 Nov 2019 23:09
Riku M wrote:
17 Nov 2019 18:58
Interesting project! :)

Here is some recordings from Oulu, Finland made with RTL-SDR. I will make more recordings of other stations, but my location has really bad multipath issues so I have to find a better place. I have also made many recordings next to the transmitter sites around Finland, but those are unfortunately short.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tB6Lv ... GxBuGVr3WN

HDSDR_20191117_120835Z_99100kHz_IF = NRJ 1kW
HDSDR_20191117_122450Z_93200kHz_IF = YleX 50kW
HDSDR_20191117_132704Z_94300kHz_IF = Radio Nostalgia 3kW

I'm not sure what the deviation limits are here in Finland. In the south many YLE stations are on max. 100% deviation, but here many main TXs have peaks up to 130%. Many YLE relays though on this area are on a lower deviation. Also 87.6 Radio Nostalgia in Lahti is about 130% and 105.3 Radio Nova relay in Raahe is really noisy and has peaks up to 150%. I have recordings of these but unfortunately only about 1-2min.

87.7 NRJ in Raahe used to relay 99.1 from Oulu and and was on about 80-90% deviation. Then in 2018 Radio Kajaus started in Raahe on 98.9 and they couldn't relay 99.1 anymore so they moved to some other method, maybe internet stream since there was delay compared to other TXs. Now they had deviation peaks up to 150-160% and sound from left channel was very weak, but it sounded awesome! :D Very dynamic, clear sound quality and not heavily compressed like other transmitters. But recently this summer they installed audio processors etc. to there and it is now the worst sounding station in Finland. :lol:


Riku Martinmäki
Interesting info Riku. I noticed during an excellent sporadic E opening to Sweden & Finland in the summer that there was a big difference between the txes in Sweden and Finland. The Swedish stations all had good, quiet modulation with a clean and smooth sound, whereas many of the Finnish stations sounded louder and much more processed. YLE Yksi was the exception to this.
I agree, Swedish stations sound really good! :) That's because in there all stations have to comply with ITU-R BS.412, which limits the MPX power. SR stations have been using this for a long time now, but for example NRJ and RIX FM in Skellefteå didn't until last year. In Denmark they use this too and seems like for a quick fix some stations just turned their MPX-levels down so they don't have to upgrade audio processing settings etc. This results in some really low 19kHz stereo pilot and low RDS-levels. Noticed this during Sporadic-E. I'm just guessing, might be other reasons for that too.

ITU-R BS.412 is also a recommendation here in Finland, but not a single station uses it since they are not forced to. So most stations tend to sound loud and compressed. In my area I think that Kiss has the best audio processing, it's compressed but no audiable distortion unlike most other stations. YleX is also pretty good but usually lacks highs depending on the current program. And of course Classic and YLE Yksi sound nice and clean since they mostly play classical music.

Funny thing is that just as I said that 87.7 NRJ is the worst sounding station, they yesterday improved the audio quality and it sounds now much better! They also added RT, unfortunately just static Hit music only. It seems that RDS isn't in the focus here in Finland anymore. I have noticed that many other countries like Sweden, UK, Germany etc. have song names on the RT and sometimes on the PS too! I find this very useful, but only station here that does so is a temporary Jouluradio (eng. Christmas radio) which has current song on the RT, but the A/B flag doesn't work so some radios will not update the text without retuning. NRJ and Radio Nova used to have dynamic RT too but for some reason they switched to static ones. :(

Nick Gilly
Posts: 1497
Joined: 18 Sep 2014 14:17
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire, UK

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Nick Gilly » 23 Nov 2019 09:09

Capital 103.2 is still over-deviating. I watched it yesterday for about a minute and there were two peaks at 106% and 109%. I'm sure if I watched it for longer there'd be worse ones than that.
Good DX.

Nick, Whitchurch, Hampshire.

BW Broadcast RBRX Encore, Kenwood L-1000T, Yamaha T-2, Denon TU-800L, Kenwood KT-1100SD (modified), Yamaha T-85, Sony XDR-F1HD tuners, horizontal Körner 9.2 beam (Antennenland version), Yaesu G-450C rotator

Riku M
Posts: 5
Joined: 09 Jul 2019 14:45
Location: Haapavesi, Finland

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Riku M » 23 Nov 2019 19:47

Here is some more files: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GcLKB ... Lx6lelHBbK

HDSDR_20191122_183603Z_104100kHz_IF.wav = 104.1 Radio Nova, Haapavesi 30kW. TX unstable and their main audio feed probably failed, so they are relaying 105.1 from Pihtipudas 50kW. This has been going on for over a month now.

HDSDR_20191122_191029Z_104800kHz_IF.wav = 104.8 Radio Nova, Oulu 50kW, TX ok.

HDSDR_20191122_223957Z_101400kHz_IF.wav = 101.4 Kiss, Oulu 3kW

HDSDR_20191123_150945Z_103500kHz_IF.wav = 103.5 Loop, Oulu 2kW

HDSDR_20191123_161352Z_90400kHz_IF.wav = 90.4 YLE Radio 1, Oulu 50kW

HDSDR_20191123_165350Z_100300kHz_IF.wav = 100.3 YLE Radio Vega, Oulu 50kW

Günter Lorenz
Site Admin
Posts: 67
Joined: 02 Oct 2014 10:24

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Günter Lorenz » 28 Nov 2019 21:19

@Riku M, thanks for these more files, just downloaded. The evaluation is making good progress and I hope to be able to show results within a week or two. Stay tuned!
Thanks also for your insights on RDS usage. I'm a bit oldskool and I think that RDS PSN should be static. All the (dynamic) fun should be on RDS RT, which many new receivers can display properly. As far as i know, if your studio is using modern equipment and digital music, artist/title playout in RT should not be a problem. If you are running on vinyl, you could send your stream to ACRcloud, they will return the playlist to you via json api.

Tim Bucknall
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Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Tim Bucknall » 29 Nov 2019 10:37

i've refreshed my mega account files
https://mega.nz/#F!1p8BDQoY!y8WeP-3hTehRM7FQlF-ASQ
https://mega.nz/#F!t91jSKyQ!ojuAECWsumHUdENcR3vE0w

let me know when you have those and i'll replace them again
Rx: Burkhardt Reuter RDR54D1, Elad FDM-S2, Airspy HF+ w/ HS Publications 6 Element R3 -R5 Yagi on rooftop rotator V/H polarization options. Pira P275 RDS analyser

Tim Bucknall
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Location: Now stranded in Congleton
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Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Tim Bucknall » 29 Nov 2019 10:44

i've noticed the BBC Radio Wales txs on 94.8 llandonna & 95.4 Wrexham (too weak for the FM library project) drift // to each other
i had assumed the instability on each tx was random but its not, when one drifts down/up the other one does too

I'm sure neither tx is feeding the other as they don't reach each others coverage areas
Rx: Burkhardt Reuter RDR54D1, Elad FDM-S2, Airspy HF+ w/ HS Publications 6 Element R3 -R5 Yagi on rooftop rotator V/H polarization options. Pira P275 RDS analyser

Tim Bucknall
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Joined: 01 Oct 2014 14:55
Location: Now stranded in Congleton
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Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Tim Bucknall » 29 Nov 2019 19:51

Hitmix 107.5 (CR)
https://mega.nz/#!U4dA3a4D!M-zkit5s2dqO ... ZoAq96JrFc

here's my strongest Irish station , its very strong but there is some hiss , here it is anyway up to you if you think its adequate for the library

1st attempt
https://mega.nz/#!8pEWnCCb!JAEG8vc0bO9R ... UNU2qlz6z4

2nd attempt
https://mega.nz/#!dpd2gALJ!CLS507ufw-79 ... ACgarqKWTk
now i'm going vertical to get some of the community stations
Rx: Burkhardt Reuter RDR54D1, Elad FDM-S2, Airspy HF+ w/ HS Publications 6 Element R3 -R5 Yagi on rooftop rotator V/H polarization options. Pira P275 RDS analyser

Tim Bucknall
Posts: 3133
Joined: 01 Oct 2014 14:55
Location: Now stranded in Congleton
Contact:

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Tim Bucknall » 29 Nov 2019 20:08

Rx: Burkhardt Reuter RDR54D1, Elad FDM-S2, Airspy HF+ w/ HS Publications 6 Element R3 -R5 Yagi on rooftop rotator V/H polarization options. Pira P275 RDS analyser

Tim Bucknall
Posts: 3133
Joined: 01 Oct 2014 14:55
Location: Now stranded in Congleton
Contact:

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Tim Bucknall » 29 Nov 2019 20:28

Rx: Burkhardt Reuter RDR54D1, Elad FDM-S2, Airspy HF+ w/ HS Publications 6 Element R3 -R5 Yagi on rooftop rotator V/H polarization options. Pira P275 RDS analyser

Günter Lorenz
Site Admin
Posts: 67
Joined: 02 Oct 2014 10:24

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Günter Lorenz » 05 Dec 2019 20:51

Tim, thank you so much. I've downloaded all your above files from MEGA.

Tim Bucknall
Posts: 3133
Joined: 01 Oct 2014 14:55
Location: Now stranded in Congleton
Contact:

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Tim Bucknall » 08 Dec 2019 13:38

Unity Radio , Manchester 92.8
https://mega.nz/#!lhVmyK6a!0pCR85L8HY_B ... 7JwpmaL9JM

---------------

Oldham Community Radio 99.7, sorry about the noise on this

i guess it will do if nobody else can provide anything better

https://mega.nz/#!ogNyRAqR!B1Q9OyamzEhm ... XcXynynOOI
Rx: Burkhardt Reuter RDR54D1, Elad FDM-S2, Airspy HF+ w/ HS Publications 6 Element R3 -R5 Yagi on rooftop rotator V/H polarization options. Pira P275 RDS analyser

Tim Bucknall
Posts: 3133
Joined: 01 Oct 2014 14:55
Location: Now stranded in Congleton
Contact:

Re: FM radio library: Looking for support!

Post by Tim Bucknall » 08 Dec 2019 14:06

we had a bit of Tropo on 3rd december which boosted some of my Irish fringe stations to local levels
heres a much better recording of RTE 1 87.8 than the one i shared before
https://mega.nz/#!U1NQySCZ!StBqkoGu3aaq ... 3b63Smsmvo

heres RTE 2FM 91.8
https://mega.nz/#!Ywdm2QoY!Hx3oazdD6QjH ... khWenkoZqo
i think thats everything i can provide from this location, other stations are limited by splatter
Rx: Burkhardt Reuter RDR54D1, Elad FDM-S2, Airspy HF+ w/ HS Publications 6 Element R3 -R5 Yagi on rooftop rotator V/H polarization options. Pira P275 RDS analyser

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