ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Propagation questions, answers and general information
Tim Bucknall
Posts: 1675
Joined: 01 Oct 2014 14:55
Location: Congleton, often in the Peak District, sometimes in Poland or Kresy
Contact:

ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by Tim Bucknall » 26 May 2015 10:26

its 26/5/15 and 27.555 is dead
Home:Burkhardt Reuter RDR54D1 SDR V.415,
+ CLP 5130 Log P ant

Mobile: Comm Radio CR-1 + Sharman Skyscan ant, Pira P275

satnipper
Posts: 757
Joined: 03 Oct 2014 12:58
Location: Western Europe

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by satnipper » 26 May 2015 12:18

Sporadic is the key word in Sporadic E for Band II dxers...

User avatar
John Faulkner, Skegness
Posts: 4128
Joined: 19 Sep 2014 15:55
Location: Skegness, Lincolnshire. JO03dd
Contact:

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by John Faulkner, Skegness » 26 May 2015 12:24

It's not looking good. The main thing is anything can happen with Es. It might take off next month, and it's usually the case that the very end of May sees an increase into the main bulk of the Es conditions.

I see various patterns this season which have held quite rock steady. For instance, the placement of the Es clouds have been fairly geostationary. The Es come and go in swathes, as is usually the case. You get a few days of reasonable Es, then a few days of quieter activity. This is more apparent at either end of the season, then with a bit of luck, the Es occur more regularly as the season picks up. It's a general trend I have noticed every year. But this year, the lulls between the peaks have even seen 6m falling away completely. The fact that 10m is not living up to expectations also tells me this really is a shockingly poor season - and well down on last year's too!

But, anything can happen - and definitely will!

Tim Bucknall
Posts: 1675
Joined: 01 Oct 2014 14:55
Location: Congleton, often in the Peak District, sometimes in Poland or Kresy
Contact:

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by Tim Bucknall » 26 May 2015 13:57

Indeed Stuart thats why i checked 27mhz rather than FM before writing this
we had those amazing days of 14 &15th May

I'm looking at Reflexions comparison tables/graphs looking for long term patterns

the problem is
1. that the upsurge of SDR band recording is distorting the results so the amount of logs increase year on year even during a poor season
(should eventually level out after a few years)
2. I'm the only British member so for instance loggings largely reflect the wonderful season Germans had last year not the crap one we had

remember 2000? not particularly exotic dx but it just never stopped from 27th May onwards, all day and throughout the night 24/7
i was so exhausted it was one of the few times i just simply turned the set off during e skip as i just needed rest

looks like the dx has continued East of the UK http://www.fmlist.org/logfeed.php?band=Es

heres the answer: http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?acti ... ream;sess=
Home:Burkhardt Reuter RDR54D1 SDR V.415,
+ CLP 5130 Log P ant

Mobile: Comm Radio CR-1 + Sharman Skyscan ant, Pira P275

satnipper
Posts: 757
Joined: 03 Oct 2014 12:58
Location: Western Europe

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by satnipper » 26 May 2015 14:32

I'm not sure what the jetstream has to do with Sporadic E - the E layer is about 100 km above the jetstream. You're not going to find much in the way of a predictable pattern - there are far too many variables and IMHO Sp. E is analogous to MF propagation - you just can't predict it with any statistical degree of certainty.

Last year was a good season on 6m as I wrote at the time, and Band II dxers even got Iraq/Jordan in the UK - it was a season for quality not quantity.

I have a theory that quite often the Sp E LUF is above 28 MHz so you can have 6m open but nothing on 10m. You also of course get longer distance dx nearer the MUF - I've never been much interested in 10m Sp E as it is very short range.

Remember 2000? I can't remember what I had for dinner last night so hardly!

Stuart

Tim Bucknall
Posts: 1675
Joined: 01 Oct 2014 14:55
Location: Congleton, often in the Peak District, sometimes in Poland or Kresy
Contact:

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by Tim Bucknall » 26 May 2015 16:38

about a decade ago Paul logan told me that he thought E skip started about 35-40mhz and then spread out up and down from there, but my personal monitoring has not been able to confim it yet

last year it was definitely better the further south you were, in Germany they had both the quality & quantity, the North west of England had neither
Home:Burkhardt Reuter RDR54D1 SDR V.415,
+ CLP 5130 Log P ant

Mobile: Comm Radio CR-1 + Sharman Skyscan ant, Pira P275

Nick Gilly
Posts: 931
Joined: 18 Sep 2014 14:17
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire, UK

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by Nick Gilly » 26 May 2015 19:41

It has definitely been a patchy start to the season here although I caught some of the excellent opening on May 15th and there were 3 decent openings to Morocco, Spain and parts of Algeria on 23rd and 24th May. I know these openings were poor further north.

Hopefully June & July will be much better.

There's a couple of threads on the RSGB forum started by Jim Bacon about the possible links between SpE and the jet stream here:

http://www.thersgb.org/forums/index.php ... ssion.139/

http://www.thersgb.org/forums/index.php ... rawer.140/
Good DX.

Nick, Whitchurch, Hampshire.

BW Broadcast RBRX Encore, Kenwood L-1000T, Yamaha T-2, Denon TU-800L, Kenwood KT-1100SD (modified), Yamaha T-85, Sony XDR-F1HD tuners, horizontal Körner 9.2 beam (Antennenland version), Yaesu G-450C rotator

satnipper
Posts: 757
Joined: 03 Oct 2014 12:58
Location: Western Europe

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by satnipper » 26 May 2015 20:31

Those are interesting links, Nick, though it seems as though the correlation is not strong at the moment. Hopefuly Jim B will keep this up through June/July and we'll see what conclusions can be drawn.

Cheers

Stuart

Jim (Bournemouth)
Posts: 291
Joined: 18 Sep 2014 05:59
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset IO90BR
Contact:

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by Jim (Bournemouth) » 26 May 2015 21:20

While we don't really know what causes Es, it is certainly possible that weather events near the surface has a knock on effect at higher levels - wave-breaking into stratospheric levels certainly happens... but that is another subject altogether.

I'm not sure that E later prop has a LUF - a LUF depends on the amount of absorption in the D layer, and that is negligible on 15m and 10m.
At the bottom of solar minima in the past, even 15m has been livened up by the appearance of Es in May onwards, at a time when f layer MUFs really start to show the start of the tumble to summer levels. I also used to use the 10m beacon network as Es indicators for 6m, so I don't buy the idea that, say, 15m is too low for Es.

This Es season so far - I think Nick has given the best description of "patchy". We had some early openings in April, then it went quiet, then it really came in with a bang mid-month before suddenly dying completely bar a couple of days on Saturday and Sunday. Taking the last eleven days, we have had Es on Band 2 on only two of them, and I heard Es on 6m on a third (Monday), but apart from that, it has been quiet.
Basically, in May so far, four good days with several days of almost complete silence even on 6m, in between.
Jim, Bournemouth, Dorset. IO90BR.

Elad FDM-S2, Perseus/FM+ and Funcube Dongle SDR Recievers 8-element OP-DES for Band 2, 12-ele ZL Special for 2m, plus wideband vertical
.

Image

satnipper
Posts: 757
Joined: 03 Oct 2014 12:58
Location: Western Europe

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by satnipper » 26 May 2015 21:30

Sp E certainly does have a LUF as we don't speak of Es on 20m for example though 14 MHz is obviously open at the time of an Es opening (so to speak). The question is where is that LUF "typcally"? 15m at sun spot minima would need some Es to liven it up - though it would be short-range EU.

I have certainly worked 6m openings when 10m has been dead. Now that may well be due to no stations being on - mabve should make a note to check some beacon freqs but we all know how focused you have to be to work 6m Es when the cloud is favouring you.

Stuart

Nick Gilly
Posts: 931
Joined: 18 Sep 2014 14:17
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire, UK

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by Nick Gilly » 27 May 2015 07:38

Not to tempt fate, but the map is looking much healthier this morning. We may be back in business.
Good DX.

Nick, Whitchurch, Hampshire.

BW Broadcast RBRX Encore, Kenwood L-1000T, Yamaha T-2, Denon TU-800L, Kenwood KT-1100SD (modified), Yamaha T-85, Sony XDR-F1HD tuners, horizontal Körner 9.2 beam (Antennenland version), Yaesu G-450C rotator

Tim Bucknall
Posts: 1675
Joined: 01 Oct 2014 14:55
Location: Congleton, often in the Peak District, sometimes in Poland or Kresy
Contact:

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by Tim Bucknall » 27 May 2015 12:54

Lowest E skip i've ever had was in the summer of 1992
one summer evening Radio Fax's 12.255mhz tx (near Drogheda, Irl) came it at full strength (not usually audible here, especially at night)
Home:Burkhardt Reuter RDR54D1 SDR V.415,
+ CLP 5130 Log P ant

Mobile: Comm Radio CR-1 + Sharman Skyscan ant, Pira P275

Andrew Webster,Wigan
Posts: 1864
Joined: 18 Sep 2014 16:03
Location: Wigan Northwest England
Contact:

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by Andrew Webster,Wigan » 06 Jun 2015 20:40

I think it's time have a moan about the lack of E's this season so far as last year was not so good this year so far is a lot worse in my opinion just one opening on the 3 rd this month of JUNE!
6 M has been very quiet this month compared with the last week in May of course my SDT=R does not compare with a proper rig.

There I have had my moan lol lets hope the DX comes flooding in now.

Andy
Receiving equipment: 2 Sony ST-S311, 1 Sony ST-SE520, 1 Sony ST-SE700 2 crossed FM 5s rotatable, 1 homemade FM 3 horizontal beaming S/E, 1 vertical FM 3 fixed beaming at Ireland, 2 element band 1.

Jim (Bournemouth)
Posts: 291
Joined: 18 Sep 2014 05:59
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset IO90BR
Contact:

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by Jim (Bournemouth) » 06 Jun 2015 21:17

Agree, Andy.

There is no doubt that June so far really has been shockingly poor here.

I commented on Friday last week that the season is about to die for 9 days, as I had a week off work, but I thought I was joking. Sadly, it turns out that I wasn't!! One day left for things to redeem themselves, but I'm not holding my breath...

Over the last 8 days, I've had one 5 minute opening to Portugal late last Sunday, the short opening to ROU and HNG on the 3rd and the series of 2 minute wonders to Italy on the afternoon of the 4th.

Outside of those times, even 6m has been closed for all but a couple of hours on the 3rd and again on the 4th, and 10m mostly devoid of European beacons. Over 30 years of working or monitoring those bands, this is the worst start to June I can remember - even 1989 and 1991 were not quite as bad as this.
If the middle 2 weeks of June are the same as they were last year, then the portion of June up to the solstice will have been a disaster here.

I recognize that things have been considerably better further East, as they were last year.
Jim, Bournemouth, Dorset. IO90BR.

Elad FDM-S2, Perseus/FM+ and Funcube Dongle SDR Recievers 8-element OP-DES for Band 2, 12-ele ZL Special for 2m, plus wideband vertical
.

Image

User avatar
John Faulkner, Skegness
Posts: 4128
Joined: 19 Sep 2014 15:55
Location: Skegness, Lincolnshire. JO03dd
Contact:

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by John Faulkner, Skegness » 07 Jun 2015 00:30

Definitely the worst season I can remember - and I know it could still be worse than this. While we were raving about the amazing Es season in 2013, band 2 DXers in the US were complaining that they barely had a thing. I remember a DXer on the east coast saying there had only been one solitary opening on band 2 towards the end of the season. So this definitely happens.

I tend to do a little 'review of the season so far' at the end of May, but I haven't done this yet. No particular reason, but I have been reluctant to complain about the conditions as there is usually some part of the world enjoying better conditions than other areas, so it's difficult to strike a balance and make an accurate assessment.

Eastern European DXers have been enjoying better band 2 Es than we have here in western Europe over the last week, so somebody has been getting it. It's only when you compare the monthly plots on the MMMonVHF website that you can see the relatively fewer openings across Europe than this period last year. When you add in the poor conditions on 6m and even down into 10m, you realise that conditions are some way below average.
a
Things could be worse. We have had a few reasonable openings. I might have a slight advantage being on the east coast of the UK, but that's no guarantee as sporadic E can land anywhere. It's not over until the fat lady sings, as some DXer once said, and we can hope that conditions improve in the coming weeks.

daveB
Posts: 991
Joined: 07 Oct 2014 16:49

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by daveB » 07 Jun 2015 10:47

The only way I can see to remove the distortion caused by SDR logs is to look at the time, duration and direction of each SpE opening. In which case it the worst of the four seasons in which I've been DXing and poorer than last year. Also also think tropo hasn't been anywhere near so good over last autumn this spring. OK where I am it's a bit difficult to gauge it as coastal DX if often present - but hardly any (if any) block busting wall to wall ducting.

Rgds

David
SDRPlay, AirSpyMini, RTL dongles, SB920s, Yamaha TX930. 5 ele compact yagi on rotator at 18ft agl. FM5 facing east, FM5 facing south, FM3 facing NE, OIRT dipole, 3-ele Moxon vertical facing east.

satnipper
Posts: 757
Joined: 03 Oct 2014 12:58
Location: Western Europe

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by satnipper » 07 Jun 2015 11:08

How can you tell the airplane full of Brits has landed? The whining continues even when the engines have been switched off!

Look on the bright side. It can be a blessing in disguise. Surely the answer to how you listen to big SDR recordings of Sp E is that you listen to them when there is no sporadic around. Voila - those files must have been fully examined by now.

IZ8FFA is on 50180 - so there is some Sp E around even when the band seems dead. Lad in Bracknell even told me he worked SV8 earlier - all depends on your location, decent antennas and being at the rig.

Interesting article in Radcom this month about monitoring Sp E last season by looking at how often 6m beacons were logged by the RBN network. Jim Bacon then tried to correlate with jet stream and other phenomenon. The one conclusion that was drawn was that Sp E exhibits no periodicity. The raw data files are available for download so any dxer can do their own analysis.

Stuart

Tim Bucknall
Posts: 1675
Joined: 01 Oct 2014 14:55
Location: Congleton, often in the Peak District, sometimes in Poland or Kresy
Contact:

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by Tim Bucknall » 07 Jun 2015 11:41

shocking season in Northern England, even worse up here than John, Jim & Nick have reported
its so bad i'm getting exciting about going to London on 27th just so i can log the pirates and tune an unfamiliar band

i've been at the rig 24/7 -advantages of being stuck at home ill, i guarantee thats not an issue here

if the pattern of 2014 is repeated then the next issue of reflexion will show that the Germans had a stunning season

perhaps Gunter will post here?

heres the jet stream in June 2013 https://robertscribbler.wordpress.com/2013/06/
and now http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?acti ... ream;sess=

just saying ;-)
Home:Burkhardt Reuter RDR54D1 SDR V.415,
+ CLP 5130 Log P ant

Mobile: Comm Radio CR-1 + Sharman Skyscan ant, Pira P275

daveB
Posts: 991
Joined: 07 Oct 2014 16:49

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by daveB » 07 Jun 2015 12:33

Voila - those files must have been fully examined by now.
Not yet! I've only just finished going through the May 15th files and extracting RDS data. I've just one more thing to do - and that's to actually listen around the hour and half hour to see if I can get vocal id of other stations.

Mind you there is always the worry that whilst listening to the recordings that I'll miss a brief opening.

Rgds

David
SDRPlay, AirSpyMini, RTL dongles, SB920s, Yamaha TX930. 5 ele compact yagi on rotator at 18ft agl. FM5 facing east, FM5 facing south, FM3 facing NE, OIRT dipole, 3-ele Moxon vertical facing east.

User avatar
John Faulkner, Skegness
Posts: 4128
Joined: 19 Sep 2014 15:55
Location: Skegness, Lincolnshire. JO03dd
Contact:

Re: ok you're allowed to moan about the poor e skip now!

Post by John Faulkner, Skegness » 07 Jun 2015 14:13

Come on Stuart? Why the dismissal of everybody else's opinion? Show us your big logs from 6m and band 2. The season is definitely down on last season, it's an observation and a fact. This is forum for friendly discussion, and that's what we are doing. Your opinion is valid and welcome, but even you must agree that it's not the best season.

Post Reply

Return to “Propagation”